Yes I actually do get to change it. Why is this so important to you? A wikipedia page is here to provide facts, not theories. A death scene montage for the purpose to sexually arouse, and a lesbian theory that isn't even based on actual evidence doesn't belong here. Quit being foolish.
I've had to edit this post multiple times just so you don't get the wrong idea about me and my intentions, which you already have.
Also, it's "Shepherd", not "Sheppard".
Let's go over some other points:
1. This is Wikia, not Wikipedia. The sole purpose of wikis aren't simply to "provide factual information only", a lot of wikis are for analysis. Even Wikipedia contains analysis. In other words, the purpose of a wiki is to convey information, not simply facts. A wiki's purpose to "cover facts only" is merely your belief. Theories and speculation (which are a part of analysis) are allowed on many Wikias, as long as it's marked as speculation and not presented as factual, there is sufficient evidence (although what qualifies as that is subjective), and isn't too long (although what qualifies as "too long" is also subjective). If there is a dispute over a theory, then the proper course of action is to talk it out with the editor and try to reach a consensus, not resort to name-calling as you have.
2. Daniella being a possible lesbian theory is well-known in the fanbase, such as the title of this video, a commentor saying "all those lesbian moments" and this overview. I strongly disagree when you claim there is no sufficient evidence - perhaps the most explicit being getting close to Fiona where they almost kiss and entering Fiona's room to stare at her body and feel her up. If you think the Daniella = possible lesbian theory is too long, or perhaps has iffy content, then consider editing it to improve it instead of deleting it entirely. I am curious: is the idea of Daniella being a lesbian upsetting for you? Uncomfortable?
3. As I mentioned in a previous edit which you either didn't see or totally ignored, not all death videos are meant to "sexually arouse" people - your view is judgemental and a very narrow-minded view of the intentions of their uploaders. Only one of the five videos you recently removed is a death compilation video, and it is not labeled as a "ryona" video by the uploader. A month ago, I even deleted the videos with "ryona" in their titles where Fiona is wearing sexualized clothing for you (and so people in the future wouldn't get the wrong idea about this wiki or my intents). I was trying to be nice and considerate to you there and reach a compromise, but apparently, it is still not good enough for you.
Trying to give the reader "sexual pleasure" (or any pleasure) is not my intent when I put death videos on wikis. Here are some of the reasons why I put death videos on wikis:
This is more of a philosophical reason. They are a part of the game's content and I feel society treats death like a taboo topic which we prefer to not think about, and perhaps feel discouraged to show or talk about. In my eyes, it's one of the biggest elephants in the room there is. But is such an outlook healthy? In reality, we live in a world where people can die at any moment, so being exposed to death can help us remember to live, enjoy life while we're still alive, and cherish our loved ones for the short finite time we have on this planet. Watching fictional characters die, and perhaps desensitization to death, can help create empathy for the protagonist which could even extend to animals and people in real life, and help us cope when death actually happens. I think the idea that "witnessing suffering creates empathy" is possible. When I was a child, my experiences with death were very traumatic because I felt society and my environment did not prepare me for it. The death of my pet was one of the worst feelings I ever had, and I cried myself to sleep for many nights. This is one reason why I feel strongly when it comes to the idea of preparation for death.
Death montages can help the player on what not to do (such as not walking in front of the wall with eyes, being careful when interacting with objects in a certain room, etc). I'm very into "strategy" tips when it comes to video games. Instead of listing every possible moment where Fiona can die on every article, a death compilation does the job.
They warn the reader what sort of mature content exists in the game so people who know nothing about the game are aware what they're getting into and see if they can handle it. If you can't handle the death compilation, then there's a 99% chance you can't handle the game. If you are so upset by it, then simply don't watch it. The video title called "death scenes" should be sufficient to know what you're getting into, and it doesn't give you the right to delete it for everyone else who are interested in what sort of mature content the game contains and see if they can handle it.
The other videos are meant to showcase the hide-and-seek gameplay and stalker chase gameplay, which are core components of the gameplay. This is a hide-and-seek survival horror game, and you're actually offended that the article for the game showcases some of the hide-and-seek and survival gameplay to the point where you delete them.
This is a wiki that, by its nature, deals with mature content, as mentioned by the mature content warning on the front page and the game's 17+ ESRB rating. Contrary to what you seem to believe (as you implied in a previous edit), the purpose of a wiki (especially a wiki focused on horror video games of all things) is NOT to make you feel "safe" and "comfortable". Try telling that to Saw Wiki or something. By your logic, we should remove information/videos/photos on things like war, the Holocaust, suicide, animal cruelty, serial killers, racism, just so you can feel "safe" and "comfortable" and sleep at night. However, the idea of "safety" is a bit of an illusion. I assume you refer to the idea of "safety of the mind", as viewing content on a wiki is not the same as "physical safety", such as a killer entering your house to murder you in your sleep. What do you mean when you want a wiki to be "safe"? How can a wiki be "safe"? Does this mean a wiki can be "dangerous" then in your eyes? You claim you want a wiki to be "clean" and "safe", but I am not sure what this entails. I am intrigued and suspect you mean "anything that makes me feel uncomfortable on a wiki should be removed", a stance I vehemently disagree with, especially if the content covered is naturally uncomfortable.
Haunting Ground is not an extremely graphic game at all, it's not like you see Fiona's intestines or anything. All you see in the game is Fiona being physically beaten and blood. If something happens, like Fiona's throat is slashed, or Daniella pierces Fiona, the game doesn't show her wound. Even in certain death scenes, like the iron maiden and rock grinder, the camera angle never shows Fiona's body being damaged and all the action is off-screen. Don't act like I put Saw-level content on this wiki. Haunting Ground is one of the tamest horror games out there, especially compared to things like the eye scene from Dead Space.
4. Call me "stupid" again and act rude to me instead of like a mature editor, and expect a block. Maybe you should re-examine your motives before you go on a horror-focused wiki and complain about horror content on it, as well as call someone (who works very hard on trying to make it the best wiki it can be, having poured hours and hours of sweat into it) "foolish" and "stupid". Perhaps calling me a stupid fool and possibly insulting others in the past has helped you experience some catharsis with your frustration, but I can assure you that name-calling others is not the best way when it comes to Internet arguments, as well as dealing with people and winning people over to your side. All it really does is hurt their feelings, make them feel agitated and less likely to help you out, or piss them off. Be more tact with the way you interact with people. Perhaps I'm going through a rough time or one of my family members recently died. As Monika from Doki Doki puts it:
5. This is important to me because it seems as if you're trying to hide/deny the game's suggestive/uncomfortable content for illogical reasons, and I have strong feelings when it comes to the idea of censorship.
Haunting Ground is one of my favorite games of all time, and Fiona and Daniella are two of my favorite characters in video games, so this also contributes to why I feel strongly about this.
Jesus Christ, you didn't have to write me an essay.
I'll start off saying this; I shouldn't have called you names. That was uncalled for, and for that I apologize.
As for the rest of your post...what am I suppose to say to that? I am allowed to make changes as I see fit, no matter how illogical they may seem to you. You don't own this site, so chill the fuck out with that attitude of yours.
The Daniella/Fiona theory has no weight. How can she be a lesbian? She doesn't feel pleasure or pain, she said it herself.
And the ryona death videos are disgusting, and I am allowed to have a problem with them, and keep them off the wiki page. Sure, obviously not all death scenes videos are made for that purpose. But the ones that are don't belong here. Period. As for the rest of the videos I deleted; They were by complete accident. Whoops.
I can handle anything; gore, sexual themes, prejudice, death. But I draw the line with certain things like these. It's not that I can't handle seeing characters getting killed, it's about those people who get off on that kind of stuff, that rubs me the wrong way.
Don't agree? Don't care. We'll have to agree to disagree.
I'm sorry my last post was long, I'm very thorough and it's a habit of mine. You should understand that if someone feels attacked or is in a position in which they look particularly nasty, they would want to clarify and explain themselves. I accept your apology about the name-calling.
You're allowed to make *certain* changes... within reason. "As I see fit" is extremely broad and vague, but if someone has an issue with your changes, you are supposed to properly communicate with the editor and try to reach a consensus. While you are allowed to make changes as you see fit (editing for the first time), you are not always allowed to keep them, especially if the consensus is against your edits.
I may not "own" this site, but I am an admin on this wiki, and it is my duty to oversee the wiki's development and monitor changes. It doesn't help that you made that change to Daniella's article without an edit summary.
You seem to be confused as to what sexual orientation entails. Just because Daniella doesn't feel sexual pleasure, it doesn't mean she isn't attracted to others (whether it be sexual desire, physical desire, emotional desire, etc). Daniella still could theoretically be attracted to men and women, she just wouldn't feel any sexual pleasure while having intercourse. Lesbians can be asexual. Lesbianism encompasses more than just sexuality, it's also about love, emotions and feelings. I would like to re-add the theory - we can change it so that it makes more sense.
You are allowed to be disgusted by the ryona videos, but you are not allowed to remove them for everyone else without a consensus and act like your word is final, which is the mentality you seem to have. Since I agreed to remove the ryona videos so people don't get the wrong idea, a consensus on that has been reached. Would you have an issue if I restored louischou's death video to the Haunting Ground article? It's not fetished or has "ryona" in the title. I would also like to add a link to it on Fiona's article, but not as a video thumbnail so it doesn't seem like we're trying to say "HEY, LOOK AT THIS VIDEO OF FIONA DYING, COME WATCH!" I feel this is a decent compromise.
Unfortunately, if I don't agree, you do have to care if we're trying to reach a consensus, and by "care", I mean "be considerate of other's opinions". Neither you or me live in a world where we get to say "Fuck everyone else's opinion, I do what I want". There's a difference between "agreeing to disagree" and that.
I saw the information about Mary having a brother who was never ever mentioned before and read Hifumi Kouno's e-mail which was the source of that information. I thought it was very odd that a character apparently very central to Mary's interest in the occult was never in the game, so I tweeted at Kouno, and him being the awesome and kind creator that he is, replied within a minute. Turns out "the birth of his brother" is a typo referring to "the birth of the brothers", Bobby and Dan. The tweet is in Japanese but his words are very clear, so anyone who can read Japanese can confirm:
Officially, there is nothing that states Bates is the spirit of Alyssa's deceased twin. The game even goes out of its way to mention this, stating that his exact identity is unknown and that he may be an evil spirit haunting the Maxwell family. In fact, Alyssa's twin is stated to be female, which makes it all the more unlikely that is who Bates is. Why has the page been changed to provide misinformation?
First of all, "why has the page been changed to provide misinformation"? That's kinda a low-blow. First of all, it wasn't really "changed" per se, it was like that for quite a while. Secondly, no one on the wiki is intentionally trying to misinform anyone (which seems what you're insinuating), it's probably just an honest mistake.
It's a very natural assumption to assume Bates is Alyssa's deceased twin. I get that the devs seem to want an aura of mystery around Bates. Also, Alyssa's twin is not explicitly confirmed to have been female. It's possible it was a baby girl and boy, but Allen decided not to risk it and buried them anyway. In any case, we can make the article more ambiguous.
It's not a "low blow". It is accurate. The page was, at some point, changed, and it was changed to include information that is not properly sourced. I'm not saying whoever did so had malicious intent, but it's still what happened, and no one fixed it.
Many people have theorized Bates is Alyssa's twin, but the game does not support that. It's all but outright said Alyssa's twin was a girl. I don't think Maxwell would have buried his children if there was even a chance they were not cursed. The game also states very clearly that what Bates is is unknown. Since one of the twins is said to have a cruel alter-ego, Bates would likely be said alter-ego, as opposed to the spirit of Alyssa's dead twin.
Of course you're not trying to insult the editors, but I can't help but get that pompous and condescending "well, I never!" attitude from you because of the way you said that. No one fixed it because no one probably knew it was misleading.
Clock Tower 2 is a rather poorly written and confusing game (imo), so I can't blame someone for getting that impression since Bates is masculine and there are mentioned of a cursed twin in the game. In addition, the character biographies require ALL 13 endings to be unlocked. I hate the suggestion that Bates may be just some totally random and vague male ghost since it's a silly consideration.
Where is it said that Alyssa's twin is female? Just because the character bipgraphies say that the Maxwells have a history of twin girls being cursed and buried, it doesn't necessarily mean Alyssa had a female twin.
Let's hypothetically imagine that Alyssa's twin is female. Then why is Bates male? Who is he? Why is he possessing Alyssa? How did he possess Alyssa? It's total nonsense.
That's twisting my words. I was very civil and polite.
I said "it's all but said" that Alyssa's twin is female. The guide specifically says that "twin girls" are rarely born into the Maxwell family, and since they are believed to be cursed, they are buried alive. There's no reason to assume a twin boy and girl would recieve the same fate. If all twins were given this treatment, then why not just say that instead of specifying "girls"?
Eh, whatever. It's just that I read that and it made you seem like you believed someone deliberately changed it in order to "provide misinformation". A better way of saying that is "why is this error on the page?", because the former is almost like "why did someone put this misinformation on it?" Let's move on.
Also, I meant Maxwell earlier, not Allen since Allen rescued Alyssa (it's been quite a while since I last played the game). Still, you said "I don't think Maxwell would have buried his children if there was even a chance they were not cursed." Even if both twins were female, Maxwell is kind of an asshole who buried the children anyway due to an urban legend, so I doubt he would've spared them if they were opposite sex. He's a bad daddy.
The game is indeed vague and confusing, but don't rule out the possibility that they are opposite sex twins, since I feel it only creates even more plot holes.
No one really knows what Maxwell's normal personality is like. The Cerebral Toxin plan was said to be his revenge against humanity. Given that he seems to have it all, the only thing that makes sense is that this was spurred on by having to bury his own children alive. That's why I don't think he would have done it if there was any excuse not to, such as one of the kids being a boy. And we can't say his fears were completely unfounded, since one of the children really does have a murderous alter-ego.
Hi, just to ask about edits. Congenital insensitvity to pain is a very specific type of hypoalgesia, and you have to be born with it hence congential, I'm not an expert or medical personel, but from what I've read up about it hypoalgesia is a general medical terrm for inability to feel pain, and not all are hereditary. SInce we don't know if Daniella suffers from the congential type or not , listing it seems too specific and hypoalgesia by itself covers the congential insensititvity type anyway, CIP also would mean she has never felt pain (and never could), yet she groans as if in pain sometimes when attacked and gasps/groans and looks shocked for a second when the glass shard impales her....with CIP she wouldn't be capable of any pain sensation, no matter how extreme the circumstances, while other types can vary.
Another question I wanted to ask is, Ugo is a homoncolus and this is confirmed in game, Ayla was the human woman he fell in love and ran off with, if Fiona is their child how is she not a mixture of both?
not arguing with the changes, just asking because I don't fully understand.
You're going to need to prove how "congenital insensitvity to pain" is a form of hypoalgesia. I checked the Wikipedia articles (yeah, I know it's Wikipedia, but still) but I didn't find anything mentioning this. I don't see any harm in specifically mentioning she may have been born that way. Her "pain" grunts may be interpreted as annoyance, and her being pierced giving her pain is probably an exception, since I'm sure people with CIP would feel pain if they were pierced like that (you need to find me proof that CIP means they can never feel even a little pain in extreme situations). Wikipedia also says, "Indifference to pain means that the patient can perceive the stimulus, but lacks an appropriate response: they do not flinch or withdraw when exposed to pain." which seems to fit Daniella.
Fiona could be considered entirely human because she was created from a human woman's womb. A homunculus is defined as a human being created by man-made means. Since Fiona was not created by man-made means (she was merely created with the sperm of someone who was), then you could come to this conclusion. Also, you could argue a homunculus is a subset or type of human, and that a "homunculus" simply refers to the method created. You're acting as if homunculi are an entirely different species from humans. I think it's subjective and opinionated than that.
It's okay, you're not troubling me. But since we don't know when Daniella lost the ability to feel pain, and it could've been at birth, I have no issues with mentioning the congenital type since it's a notable possibility and specification, even if you feel it's a little redundant.
With the homunculi thing, again, it's subjective. You said "Humans are not created by alchemy or from mandrake root", but that's just your own opinion. Is a human born from a c-section, or in an incubator (assuming such a thing is possible) not a human? A homunculus is basically a human made in an incubator, but with alchemy. Your tiger and lion analogy is a false equivalence because they are different species, while someone could still consider a homonculus a human (just a human made with different means, but a human nonetheless). The homunculi in the castle are mentally disabled and failed experiments (while Ugo/Lorenzo/Riccardo possess basic human intelligence), so it doesn't really matter. Are mentally disabled humans not human? Of course not, so the same logical applies here.
Yeah, I see your point, it's subjective, I just can't see the homoncoli as exactly the same as a regular human, equal to, and very similar but not the same thing because the genetics and DNA would still be different.
C-section/incubator babies are still created by a biological human egg and sperm coming together. whether naturally or artificially..which isn't how homoncoli are created, the basic ingredient for the life being created is different. A c section baby is just born differently, and same thing goes for a test tube baby, just that a test tube baby isn't created in the womb either.
I wasn't saying that a physically or mentally disabled person isn't a person (that would be both untrue and horrible), I was saying that these homoncoli seem to survive without care in a situation that would kill a human. How do they even eat (some have no mouths), others can barely move, some don't move, I can't imagine Riccardo or Lorenzo caring enough to look after them, especially given how Debilitas annd Daniella are treated. Daniella seems to look after the plants somewhat, and I guess maybe follows Lorenzos direction to care for him, but I can't see her being diligent or motivated enough towards the homincoli either given her erratic behaviour and own serious issues, nor her taking the initiative to care for them without being directly told, Lorenzo doesn't keep that close an eye or control on her since her attacking Fiona went totally against his wishes and orders, but if nobody is looking after them, then it means they are just left to their own devices, and some are completely unresponsive, yet somehow still alive, like they can survive on absolutely nothing, Humans could not survive without at least basic care or needs being met, disabilityor not. Also the little ones can attack you....a human baby is completley helpless and cannot. Debilitas I can understand surviving the castle, because he is capable of looking after himself but even he takes damage that would kill a normal human, or severely injure them, and just walks away. Riccardo only dies from dropping from an extereme height and may have survived if Lorenzo didn't steal his azoth, and Lorenzo in his final form is able to chase you for some distance while completely on fire.
Homoncoli aren't unique to this game, the traditional tales and ancient beliefs say they are made with mandreake root or alchemy and while now the idea of creating life through alchemy/magic is known too be in the realms of fiction and myth, historically some medeval alchemists seriously believed in this stuff.
I don't know whether thats relevant or not, it depends if the creators looked into the folklore and mythology behind them when creating the game as well, and not just the concept, , but that last link especially with the homoncoli getting fed up and running away kind of reminds me of Ugo doing the same thing and abandoning Lorenzo. Traditionally homoncoli are small, and usually male, but full sized, and even female ones, are menationed in some literature and tales basd around the folklore too (Alrune being one female example)
And that is mandrake or mandragora Daniella is tending to tin the garden, so the castle keeps ample supply for some reason...and they scream if Fiona puls them up like the folklore says.
although the myth of mandrake root "screaming" is well known so doesn't mean they did look nto it.
I'm gonna stop there with the links, I kind of bombarded you with them last time, and maybe irrelevant anyway without one of the creators coming here and either confirming or denyiing it, but it shows I wasn't making it up, and maybe (hopefully?) the info is slightly interesting anyway.
You claim the genetics and DNA of the homunculi are so different than humans, but that's not really said anywhere. Even humans have wildly different genetics - there's white people, black people, men, women, etc. Are they all different species? Well, no. But why not? Your answer would probably be that they share the "genetic base" of a human being. This is why I argue homonculi are similar - they have the basic genetic base of a human being, perhaps over 95%.
Sure, a lot of the homunculi in the castle are physically/mentally disabled, and they seem to lack belly buttons, nipples and genitalia. You raise good points, but like I said before, it's subjective. Fiona appears to be normal. All I wanted was to show you how and why Fiona could be considered a normal human being instead of half-homunculus. You did raise some interesting points, tho.
Puttng this here as I don't believe you can respond to edits. As for the status of Riccardo being Fiona's father, while he certainly did not raise or hold any care towards her, from a biological standpoint, he is exactly that. They are clones; the DNA they possess is virtually the same and contains no variation. Because of this, Riccardo (and even Lorenzo) is Fiona's father as both he and Ugo are identical copies of the parent clone. The single difference being Riccardo never held onto the Azoth. It doesn't matter that Ugo was the one to impregnate Ayla either, nor would it if Riccardo, Lorenzo or any of the previous thirteen generations of clones did so instead since they are all the same 'person' from the viewpoint of nature (albeit at different stages of life).
In my oipinion, it's this fact that makes Riccardo's sexual interest in Fiona and the D ending much more sinister and depraved. And why I feel it is inaccurate to call him Fiona's uncle or Ugo's brother as they are all carbon copies of the original Belli.
I think it depends on what your definition of a "father" is. It may ultimately be a matter of opinion, such as if someone who is "trans" is really the gender they identify with, even with/without surgery.
You claim that they possess the same DNA with no variation. But where do you know that? That's not claimed anywhere in the game. Some clones can be genetically modified. It reminds me of this scene in Xenosaga which ponders the philosophical question "Their DNA only has to differ by 0.1% to make them different people, right?"
In a social sense, he is nothing like a 'father' at all as many would define and so would be up for debate as you say, but in a biological sense, I believe he certainly is considered as one.
I claim the DNA has no variation because that is how the cloning process/asexual reproduction functions. There is only one parent so there is no fusion of gametes and genetic mixing does not occur. The offspring is identical to the parent (a clone), from the chromosomes to each individul allele as there is nothing to change them. This is seen in many species of plants and their cuttings. Fiona breaks this pattern as she is conceived from sexual reproducton between Ayla and Ugo, breaking the cycle of cloning. There's nothing in the game to suggest Riccardo is genetically different than Ugo.
Considering their personalities, interactions and intentions, the Belli's are all different, yet if we were to base purely upon biology/DNA then they are only just one person if it is exactly the same which I believe is a reliable assumption based on the game's information.
You don't know if there was no mixing or genetic variation or genetic alteration, tho. The Azoth probably changes the DNA structure, and Ugo was born with it and Riccardo without. Also, there is that scene where Fiona finds a woman in a test tube, and I imagine they may be kidnapped woman meant to birth Ugo/Riccardo. Ugo and Riccardo may not share the same birth mother, and how they were created may be very different.
You may say "there's nothing in the game to suggest Riccardo is genetically different than Ugo", but you have no proof that Riccardo and Ugo ARE genetically the same.
You should download the press kit from the Remothered site, the file called "game catalogue" is full of concept art for the new version. It looks like all of the characters from the original remothered are still in the game including Ann/Anna, Laura/Lauryn and Lotte/Lindsey, albiet Anna has been changed to Elisa and Lindsey has been completely redesigned. The Baroni family is still in it too, although the name has been changed to Ashmann. Bobby Baroni is now Gabrial Ashmann and he looks creepier than ever. Likewise, Simon Barrows/Steven Baroni is now Steven Ashmann, but his character is now playing second fiddle to Richard Felton. Jennifer may also be taking on the role of a stalker at somepoint if the full 3 minute trailer is any indication.
However, I don't think we should include Remothered info on this wiki since Remothered is not an official Clock Tower installment. Haunting Ground and NightCry are different because they are from the developers of Clock Tower installments.
Me and Chris once talked about this before, and that was the decision the community came to, which is why the Remothered Wiki was created instead. If you're that interested in Remothered, why not adopt Remothered Wiki?
I was mostly hoping to have the page here both because of it's origins, and the fact that the Remothered wiki is an unkept mess with outdated templates and just a plain gray background. Also, the text on the info boxes is almost the same color as the background so it's impossible to read T_T If I could, I would give it an overhaul but I don't have the access there to do that.
This is Clock Tower Wiki, not Clock Tower Fan Wiki. We shouldn't have too much info or focus on fan games. If we have one article for the game, then people will start adding 100-200 Remothered articles.
I'm also against the inclusion of Dead Fantasy on Final Fantasy Wiki:
As of today when I try to edit a page I ambombarded with error messages and have to disable pop ups to be able to back out. I am trying to add some new screenshots I found from the prologue and a later chapter where you play as Rooney.
I've noticed that there is no page for or even mention of Don't Cry Jennifer Forums (the only Clock Tower forum in existance that I know of) I was wondering if I could add something to the wiki about it?
Okay, the image is a GIF image, yet the image depicting Jennifer being killed by a mirror doesn't seem to actually show her death, just her looking at it. Are you entirely sure that you actually got it to work as a gif. Can you describe what exactly caused her to die?